Silvia Club of NSW

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:27 pm 
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Quad T88
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Car: S13 silvia, J31 maxima
Okay this is a first for SNSW. Im trialing something a little different. In this thread I want to see peope posting some detailed describtions and oppinions about various EBC's and bleed valves they have used.

What you thought about it and your oppinion of value for money.
I don't mind general discussion about features and comparisons between members but I Dont want to see arguments or general talk

So go for it guys. Have a techincal discussion about boost controllers.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Quad T78
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Ok then.

I have a Hybrid EBC It cost $350. Cheap as, I got it cause I wanted something to up the boost for a small cost untill I had the cash for cams, injecters, turbo, aftermarket ECU and a few other things (doing it all in one hit soonish) I have had a bleed valve on a older car and was not a fan of it.

The Hybrid EBC is 2 stage, It's got a switch too change between the 2 (high and low) it's good for what it is (no screen) Ajusted in car.

Thats it, It's nothing flash it dose it's job well and can not complane about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:13 pm 
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Quad T88
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Location: Under the bonnet somewhere
Car: S13 silvia, J31 maxima
Ive used a few over the years but the most recent would be the AVCR I had in RSK11N.

I didn't mind it. I had it running an external gate and it held boost fairly well. Others rekon they don't but mine seemed to be okay.

I never used half the functions like geared boost settings and scramble.
The blue screen was annoying as hell though.
Also instalation was a pain in the butt, there is two separate looms to run into the engine bay and they have decent sized plugs on them.

Ill just be running an external gate set to max in my new car and an ID3 in another car which should be installed this weekend hopefully.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:46 am 
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I've used a few different ones in the last few years:

1) Current generation turbosmart inline bleed on my old rx7, which did the job well enough as i was only running about 11 psi max with it. Once i upgrade the exhaust the turbo ran out of wastegate flow and boost crept up no matter what it was set at so i couldn't say whether boost dropped off in the higher gears

2) On the rb20 i started with a turbo smart dual stage bleed with the incabin switch, set to 12 and 16 psi max. No spikes but boost would always drop off at the top end, 12 dropped to 10 and 16 dropped to 12 or so. I had an issue with the dual stage on the low setting where it would make boost once then the ball valve would hold boost in the system, so i removed the ball valve and it worked well enough.

3) I got an HKS adjustable actuator, set to a base of 11 psi which allowed the turbo smart to hold 12 psi to redline but boost would still drop off on the 16psi setting to about 14 or so. Then i ditched the dual stage and ran solely off the actuator which held 14psi flat all the way through. I highly recommend the HKS actuators

4) Then i got an old version blitz dsbc, reset the actuator to 12psi and it would hold flat 14psi to redline. The dsbc has a boost cut function 4 separate duty settings (4 boost levels) but only 1 gain setting which has to be set so boost doesn't spike on the lowest setting. It wasn't an issue at this stage though.

5)My current setup has an external wastegate with 7psi spring, the dsbc does a fantastic job of holding 20psi right through the rev range, better than i expected with such a soft wastegate spring (actually it starts at 20.5 and drops to about 19.5). My biggest issue now is the single gain setting as i have to run a lower gain to suit the 20psi setting than i would for 14psi. Blitz have changed this in their later controllers (remembering that mine is 3 generations old now) so you have separate gain and duty adjustments for each boost level. But they still use the same dual solenoid which tells you how well it performs. I haven't used the scramble function, i just run my highest safe boost level and leave it at that.

Not really a technical insight, but you get an idea how they perform. I highly recommend both the blitz product and HKS actuators. For simple cheap control i would skip the bleeds all together and just get an actuator.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:15 pm 
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I have an old GReddy profec B

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the old style is quite simple and features a dual solenoid

wiring was a peice of cake, but an additional pressure signal must be taken back to the unit itself.

Ive found that it has good response, and you can adjust the gain to help minimise spiking, mine is set on 0.8 bar and it spikes to 0.9bar, which is quite satisfactory, I could probably eliminate this spike by fine tuning the balance (gain) adjustment

the dual stage offers a higher boost setting at the press of a button, and the optional GReddy overtaking button can be connected,
It seems to handle the transistion between stages easily, even if changed whilst boosting.

so overall the boost controller is quite simple, very stable and can be quite affordable second hand (around 200-250)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:15 pm 
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T28
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Ive used the above Profec B and I loved it. Using it with a Trust external gate, it held boost perfectly every single time. No spike whatsoever!!
Really simple to use, simple to install, no cheesey looks. Just sold mine for $220, and for that price second hand, youre getting a really good solid boost controller.

Currently I have an AVC-R in my 180. Havent made up my mind yet. I dont think its made up its mind yet either :P
It has heaps of features but seems pretty tricky to set up. It holds well since Ive played around with the settings, but its still largely a learning curve that Im on with it.
Some people dislike them and say they cant handle anything above 18-20psi but I couldnt confirm or deny that as I havent used it at this level... yet :P

Other than that, Im a big fan of the turbotech $35 boost Ts. I was really skeptical before seeing one in use, but I have to admit that I was damn impressed with how well it held boost.
Obviously you dont have the benefits of in cabin adjustment or gain adjustment etc like you do with an EBC, but in terms of a manual boost controller, it really seemed to be fantastic. And the price is pretty reasonable ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:19 pm 
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Used a GFB bleed valve for staters, did the job for running more boost (11psi) but was a pain in the ass to adjust, pop the bonnet and turn the thing with an allen key, then back in the car for a test run to see how much it would boost.... Held boost relativley well, only spiked once or twice for the length of time I had it...

As for the SBC ID3, installation is fairly straight forward with english instructions, has a fair few functions, many of which I haven't even had time to play with, pretty much have it set on auto now. Adjusted the gain a bit and left it on the individual psi settings. Haven't really had any problems, holds boost well, however my tuner said that the A-VCR might be more beneficial for my application due to the fact that it has duty cycle boost tuning (different boost levels for different rpm). Anyone want to confirm?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:31 pm 
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Car: S13 K
started off life with a turbo smart bleed valve. this worked alright, although I was unable to get enough control (spikes and level) to work for me properly, so passed that off for an ebc.

Bought a Blitz E-SBC which worked perfectly for low levels of boost, up to say around 14psi, but once I started to try for higher boost (18-20) it would have hunting problems. Bring it back to 14psi and it would work perfectly, bring on boost nicely, no spiking, etc.

Had to move on from the Blitz, and was outta money at that stage (was in the middle of getting a tune) so UniGroup installed a DNA Motorsport bleed valve, which has been happily running 18psi with almost 0 spike and only a slight drop (down to 16.?) over the entire rev range.

I also tested a $30 eBay (highly rec from SAU) spring and ball bearing loaded manual controller, but had horrible spiking problems of up to around 10psi, so quickly removed this and went back to the DNA.

I will soon be looking for another ebc, to stop the drop in pressure. I have been rec to get a GReddy Profec B II, so I will probably look into that, esp now with the above reviews of the older model :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Quad T66
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Car: 200sx
ive tried 3 different types of boost controllers: bleed valve, ball and spring valve, and an EBC

BLEED:
=====
by far the crappiest boost controller ive used, was the bleed valve. around 2 years ago when i hooked one of these up, they were fetching around $80 for the turbosmart ones. they simply bleed off boost from the vacuum line to the wastegate through an adjustable orifice and thats how you got your boost increase.

-boost buildup/wastegate creep was pretty average because the wastegate saw SOME boost at all times.
-top end boost control was no good, it tapered off, and trying to bleed more air just made boost spike and overboost in the midrange.
-at the time, it was relatively cheap at $80 for boost control
-simple installation

BALL & SPRING:
===========
a relatively new form of boost control, i picked up my one for ~$30 off ebay, from some guy in australia. i first came across this reading up a post about someone who purchased one and had success on the SAU forums. works on the same principle as the bleed valve by bleeding off air in the wastegates vacuum line to fool the wastegate and increase boost. the difference is that its NOT always bleeding off air like the bleed valve, but only after a user adjustable boost pressure, which is the point where the ball in the valve lifts off its seat and allows air to pass through to the wastegate. this gives much better boost response, as wastegate creep is greatly reduced.

-extremely cheap @ $30
-better then any bleed valves out there, including all brand names ones such as turbosmart
-simple install
-simple adjustment with a screw fitting to adjust the springs compression/pressure.
-still got some top end taper but not as bad as the bleed valve
-decent wastegate creep control, alot better then the bleed valve

IEBC - EBC:
========
this is what im currently running at the moment, and i find it to be an extremely good form of boost control at a very good price. ive done a write up on it before, for those who havent seen it, heres the link:
http://www.silviansw.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18327
but i'll give a quick run down on here as well. below is a pic of how its all hooked up.
Image
again the same concept of reducing what the wastegate sees by means of bleeding off air in the vacuum line to the wastegate is how this works. it has the same ability as the ball and needle valve, where a user adjustable point can be set where it actually starts allowing air to pass through to the wastegate actuator, though now its an electronic form of control which is done via the standard boost control solenoid.

basicly the solenoid stops any air from reaching the actuator until you want it to, and the point it does this is based upon a selected duty cycle of the injectors. the duty cycle of the injectors (0-100%) is represented by 64 points on the boost controller ( 0% = point 1 & 100% = point 64), and the value of each load point can be 0-100%, which gives us a 2D map - an x and y axis, one of load points 0-64, and the other the points value between 0-100%.

this 2D map is where the user tunes his boost curve. the amount of pressure the actuator sees, is based up on the duty cycle of the solenoid, or the value of the load point which you have set - this determines how much air is being allowed past the solenoid to the actuator. there is also a bleed post solenoid that lets air out so that its not trapped in there, but it also has a restrictor in it, so that it allows only a tiny bit of air out. in the section of the hose post solenoid, it becomes pressurised only when the amount of air being let through the solenoid is more then what the restrictor is capable of flowing. now by varying the duty cycle of the solenoid and hence the amount of air passing through, you can vary the pressure at the actuator, and from that you can control your boost.

rather then setting a target boost pressure, and adjusting 'gain' settings which control wastegate creep, you have full control over the wastegates operation over 64 points, which are referenced to the duty cycle of your injectors. and thats the best i can explain it, if its not enough, read the construction book :)

-great boost control
-doesnt taper in top end as you can reduce pressure at wastegate up high to to make more boost
-good value @ ~$150
-must be built, prebuilt ones are more expensive
-can be fiddly, and you really do need to have a good grasp of the concepts used to make full use of it - recommended you get the electronics book for it ~$20
-restrictor sizing is dependant on setup ie wastegate spring has an influence, as does the solenoid used etc.
-doesnt have boost control feedback correction
-can run/store 2 completely different maps
-no wastegate creep at all, due to the ability to precisely hold the wastegate closed to a certain point.
-can very the boost pressure over the whole range, rather then only have a set target ie run more boost in the mid range then in the top end.
-need to size the restrictor so that you attain max boost @ 70-80% duty cycle of the solenoid for good accuracy.


Last edited by mokompri on Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:22 am 
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i got one of them too :P

i 'tuned' it a few weeks back. i get boost spikes still, i need to play with it more when i have someone in the car to do the work so im not stopping at starting all the time

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:28 am 
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T51 Hybrid

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mokompri wrote:
BALL & NEEDLE:
===========
a relatively new form of boost control, i picked up my one for ~$30 off ebay, from some guy in australia. i first came across this reading up a post about someone who purchased one and had success on the SAU forums. works on the same principle as the bleed valve by bleeding off air in the wastegates vacuum line to fool the wastegate and increase boost. the difference is that its NOT always bleeding off air like the bleed valve, but only after a user adjustable boost pressure, which is the point where the ball in the valve lifts off its seat and allows air to pass through to the wastegate. this gives much better boost response, as wastegate creep is greatly reduced.


sorry but that is in fact incorrect, it doesnt not bleed air at all.

it restricts the amount of air the wastegate sees untill more pressure is achieved, there is a small hole in the side but that is only to releive pressure that may be trapped behind the ball.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:25 am 
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Quad T66
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i dont think i quite understand what you mean 3AM

if it was just a restriction, the pressure would eventually equalise on both sides of the ball thus you would only get wastegate boost levels, the restriction would simply slow the buildup of pressure momentarily. there is a little hole POST the ball (between ball and actuator), so that when your off the gas and the ball is in its seat the pressure between the ball and wastegate is released to close the wastegate. so when the ball is off its seat, open and flowing air (controlling boost), the little hole post the ball is bleeding air off constantly.

if it wasnt, the pressure on both sides of the ball would be equal, and you could only get wastegate levels of boost control.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:31 am 
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Quad T66
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zei20l wrote:
i got one of them too :P

i 'tuned' it a few weeks back. i get boost spikes still, i need to play with it more when i have someone in the car to do the work so im not stopping at starting all the time


what sort of duty cycles you running for full boost ? it makes it 100 times easier when you have 2 people. set all the duty cycles to 0 to get nothing to the wastegate for best response, then get one person to drive and signal when the car hits just before the target boost level, and the other person on signal can see on the handcontroller what load point its hitting that boost setting at. with that information you can then start tuning the progression section onto the fullboost alot quicker.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:06 am 
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yeah i did that, but i spikes at around 5-6k when duty cycle rises due to the sudden surge of boost, like you said, its easier with 2 people :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:00 am 
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3AM wrote:
mokompri wrote:
BALL & NEEDLE:
===========
a relatively new form of boost control, i picked up my one for ~$30 off ebay, from some guy in australia. i first came across this reading up a post about someone who purchased one and had success on the SAU forums. works on the same principle as the bleed valve by bleeding off air in the wastegates vacuum line to fool the wastegate and increase boost. the difference is that its NOT always bleeding off air like the bleed valve, but only after a user adjustable boost pressure, which is the point where the ball in the valve lifts off its seat and allows air to pass through to the wastegate. this gives much better boost response, as wastegate creep is greatly reduced.


sorry but that is in fact incorrect, it doesnt not bleed air at all.

it restricts the amount of air the wastegate sees untill more pressure is achieved, there is a small hole in the side but that is only to releive pressure that may be trapped behind the ball.


Smacks you across the back of the head.

It isn't a check valve as they only hold boost off the actuator until the set pressure is reached then it dumps all excess through to the actuator and as such does not hold a set max boost (that is still determined by the actuator) but will improve response. I've used this method too.

It isn't a regulator as that allows pressure through up to a set pressure so it does a good job of holding a set max boost but has no affect on response.

The autospeed controller utilised both in series to get better boost response with the ability to set max boost. I found it unstable once under bonnet temps rise.

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