Silvia Club of NSW
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e-Manage or S-AFC2??
https://forum.silviansw.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20172		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jackel [ Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  e-Manage or S-AFC2??
I've decided is time to look at some type of piggyback computer for my 180 (SR20). Have the choices down to the Greddy e-Manage or the Apexi S-AFCII.

Was wondering what everyone's thoughts were around which is the better option.

Current engine mods on the Car are FMIC, 3" dump and exhaust, Walbro Fuel Pump, Filter, and running 15 PSI boost. Next upgrades will be T28BB or GT28RS Turbo and bigger injectors, so looking for the piggyback to be able to handle these.

Thanks for any advice!
Author:  ZEi250t [ Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
well, a SAFC can only adjust AFM voltage input. the emanage can do that, adjust timing (albeit badly in the blue- the ultimate is much better) has additional injector outputs, can output to relays etc. and a whole host of other things

what you should do is work out what you want, then check the features of both and pick the one that suits your application
Author:  badhairdave [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:56 am ]
Post subject: 
If you plan on really leaning on the car and squeezing every last kilowatt out of it get a stand alone ecu, don't muck around with piggybacks. Basically, if you plan on upgrading injectors as your power goal is over 200rwkw then you want a standalone

The price of the emanage ultimate is only slightly cheaper than a pfc these days. And a lot more people can tune a pfc.

The safc will be a stop gap measure at best as you will reach a point after the turbo swap where you want to make more power but you are limited by your management.
Author:  Jackel [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, I was looking at the E-manage standard and the ultimate and for the difference in price of the between the ultimate and a PFC (about 300 bucks) couldn't justify buying the ultimate.

My power goal is 200rwkw.

You think that reallisticly this will require a standalone?
Author:  A'PEXi [ Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
basically you arn't limiting yourself to a basic amount of settings which in this case, could cause you to output a figure which is undesired....
Author:  Razor [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
If you were going for a touch up sort of tune with minor mods then a SAFC would be great. I tried the blue emanage, with different tuners and all in all, its about as valuable as my crap.

If your after a cheaper option perhaps daughterboard, but for the freedom of choice in tuner, Power FC is the most liable option.
Author:  swanny [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Forget the SAFC. I have owned one, and in their own right, they are good little things. You can adjust the fuel load, which is ideal if you have a few light mods, like intake and exhaust.

Id definitely recommend an eManage for around 200rwkws. In my opinion, this should be fine.
Ive seen one on a friends car, and it worked beautifully. You can pick them up second hand for really cheap - something like 500 bucks? This would be a great option in my opinion. You could buy one and have it tuned and youd still be $500 off owning a PFC.


Luke
Author:  ZEi250t [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
in that case you can buy mine for $500 and ill throw in the genuine data cable
Author:  swanny [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Who, me or Jackal?


Luke
Author:  ZEi250t [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
lol you
Author:  swanny [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Haha Id love to but already have an EMS Stinger in my 180 :)

Seriously though, I wouldnt hesitate to use an eManage... Maybe 500 is even a little more than youd have to pay for one... Considering how quick you were to offer yours for that price Zei :P

Point is, I was pretty impressed by their capabilities as a piggy back computer. I honestly dont think youd require a full standalone management system... 200kw isnt *that* big an ask of an SR20. Not at all like its going to be tuned to within an inch of its life.


Luke
Author:  ZEi250t [ Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
the emanage blue/gold is shit besides trimming fuel. forget ignition timing! it has a few functions like relay outputs etc for whatever, handy sometimes. injector correction is great too!

now, the emanage ultimate (black) uses a CAS input for timing - not guesswork like the blue/gold - (or whatever your car uses) and is basically a replacement ECU but still a piggyback. it also does a crap load more than the above item.

i guess you meant the ultimate when you were telling us all how good they were?? :)

and yes im speaking from experience. a few others can here also
Author:  swanny [ Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Nope Im not talking about the ultimate, Im talking about the blue.
Using injector pulse to monitor timing is inadequate...? How so?

Basically its an inexpensive piggyback with a good mapping resolution, which can control timing. Its hardly 'crude' in how it does so.
Either way, Ive seen one producing results. 208hp atw from a 1.3L 4efte on 16psi. And it ran like a gem with 440cc injectors too...

In my opinion, a full standalone is overkill in a situation like this. For 200kw, I think an eManage would be a great option.

I dont think its a great option for a hard tuned engine. If you have forged internals and are looking at running big boost and making around 280 - 300kW from an SR, then I think you should definitely be looking at other options that cater better for this.

But I definitely maintain that I was impressed with what an eManage can do on a street driven engine. What bad experiences have you had with one? Maybe it just wasnt tuned too well ;)


Luke
Author:  badhairdave [ Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:55 am ]
Post subject: 
I have 3 main issues with them.

1) No correction for injector lag. What that means is you have to make excessive corrections in the tables to make it run (and not necessarily well) if you install injectors with anything more than about .06ms lag than the stocker. Going from an rb/sr 4 hole type injector to a single pintle will have an increase in lag of about .12ms. This is an issue i ran into a year or so ago and zei has run into it fairly recently.

2) One of the fuel tables is mapped against throttle only. If you have an NA, great, if you have a turbo and run vastly different amounts of boost (i can run anywhere between 7 and 20 psi) then there are vastly different fueling requirements at what would be the same point in the emanage correction map but 2 different points in the ecu's map so straight away you have a compromise in your fueling where at one level it will be spot on and another it will be rich/lean.

3) The remaining 2 maps (additional fuel and timing) are mapped against the afm voltage but you can only add fuel in the fuel one. What that means is the emanage skews the incoming signal to the ecu using the throttle position map, the ecu sends out the amount of fuel it thinks it needs, then the emanage adds more. What this means from a tuning point of view is that you have to get the throttle only fuel table right first or you are continually making changes to 2 tables and as they dont use the same load reference it turns into a nightmare.

Personally, i didn't mind the emanage. It worked well enough on my rb20 and ran 550cc injectors with no real issues.

It ran my z32 afm on my rb25, but when i installed bigger injectors it fell in a heap and required way more work to get it running than an equivalent stand alone (pfc).

As far as cost goes, comparing new to new you will save 200 buying an emange that will be soaked up in the installation and tuning (if you can find someone willing to tune it).

Second hand, you are looking at 850-900 min for a pfc with handset vs 400 or so for an emanage. I sold my emanage with everything (including cable and software and the ignition loom) for 350. No one wants them so their resale value is shit. If i removed my pfc i could sell it for what i paid for it.
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